Report 1754
Report #1754 Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toad Org: Glomdoring Status: Rejected Jul 2017 Furies' Decision: We do not believe this is necessary. Problem: Wicca Toad. Kissing a toad is a cure for the wiccan based instant kill of toad curse with a 100% cure rate and then a 40% chance to cure with no costs and a 60% chance to cure and transfer the toad affliction to the kisser. Kissing toads is a little too good in that in large groups you can chain kiss toads to beat the affliction essentially racing kiss and stomp with kiss having a shorter balance. Kissing is one second of balance, stomping is 2 seconds, casting toad is a 4 second Equi time. 5 R: 8 Solution #1: Make kissing a toad a 100% transfer rate. This means that people can choose to effectively sacrifice themselves to avoid the death of an important person but leaves a kill for the attacker. 1 R:10 Solution #2: Increase the balance time of kissing to three seconds. Change the chance to cure a toad by kissing from 100% to 50%. This way there are two rolls simultaneously. One 50/50 chance to cure and also a simultaneous 60/40 chance for the kisser to be toaded. This makes kissing a toad a lot more risky as first it may not cure and secondly even if it doesn't cure you could still get toaded. With this when you kiss a toad you could end up with A: Both parties cured and fine. B Both parties toaded. C Orignal party cured, kissed toaded. D Nothing happens. 0 R:10 Solution #3: Additional solution proposed on feedback. Change the chance to 80/20 and put a cool down on it so you cant chain kiss toads. If you kiss and get turned into a toad you cant be kissed for 6 seconds. Player Comments: ---on 7/4 @ 19:50 sets as pending ---on 7/5 @ 20:21 writes: Not neceesarily opposed but would like a discussion as to the necessity. As I understand it, a major reasoning for Wiccans having generally better mana drain abilities than Guardians was the existence of the toad stage making Toadcurse less consistent as a kill method. What do you think of that reasoning? Second, I prefer Solution 1 over 2/3 as it's simpler and there's no randomness involved, assuming the premise of a buff is supported. ---on 7/6 @ 19:35 writes: That reasoning does not really make sense to me to be honest and I'm not really sure where its coming from. I'd assume your comparing Nihilists, Celestines, Shadowdancers and Moondancers directly. Its a very tricky comparison to make without going into an essay comparing everything each class brings to the table and I'm not sure if this is the place for it but I'll give a recap on my views on it and if you want a more indepth discussion on class comparasion I think the envoy wiki about class direction and development would be a good forum for that. So as a sort of direct response to the concept you bring up: If your doing a direct compassion I could see two or three main talking points. It'd be easy to argue that wiccans overall should a better way to do a mana kill than their guardian counterparts as a mana kill is wiccans only prime way to kill. Although that argument would assume that guardians have a reliably viable non mana kill route(which there are ideas and reports floating around for. As a general concept I'd be opposed to a guardian asking for a mana kill route that is superior to wiccans while also asking for a strong viable way to kill with inquisition/sacrifice/etc that'd just be having your cake and eating it but I'm happy to support guardians having better mana drain within reason(and there are reports in for this already as well) if its the direction they want to go. ---on 7/7 @ 20:42 writes: My preference here is for either solutions 1 or 3. ---on 7/11 @ 21:53 writes: I'm pretty much thinking along the same lines as Shedrin. Wiccans simply drain mana better than guardians and this isn't about what the vision is or what direction we want to take them. The fact is they do, at this moment in time. Also, it doesn't really matter if a class technically has a secondary instakill if that instakill isn't actually viable in any way. ---on 7/15 @ 00:15 writes: Its not about the vision in itself its about making sure that each class has viable kill routes as a standard. If they are not viable submit a report and we can work on it. ---on 7/15 @ 00:18 writes: Feels a bit of a tangent to be going on about the viablity of other classes instant kills. This was just a way a team can game their way out of an instantkill I discovered in testing that felt should be fixed. If your happy with the solutions Shedrin though then I don't mind discussing class balance here but I just thought we had a better forum for it on the wiki. ---on 7/15 @ 02:21 writes: I agree that kissing is too cheap. I also agree that wiccans drain more mana than guardians and toad has been buffed continuously over the years to the point where it's not far behind absolve. I personally think we should just acknowledge that toad is basically absolve at this point and either nerf wiccan drain to where guardians are or buff guardians to be as viable with mana drains as wiccans are. All of that said, I like sol. 1 because it maintains a definite downside to the ability with more strategy around it. I like the chaos in sol 2, and I had previously incorrectly thought there was a chance for both players to become toads when you kiss so it matches that expectation. ---on 7/17 @ 17:46 writes: I mentioned before I didn't think this was necessary change. I enjoy the random chance to get out . If anything I would be alright with the percentages being changed similar to sol3 without the cooldown and then revisiting if needed ---on 7/18 @ 10:15 writes: I don't particularly see the need for this, but I also don't particularly see a problem with Sol 1. ---on 7/20 @ 22:38 writes: Going to agree with some of the above comments that there isn't really a need for this at all. My suggestion, if a change is desired on the admin point, would be an adjustment of solution 3: Don't change the %ages of kissing, but a cooldown could be looked at. People have been bringing up my drain-comparison arguments already so I'm not really going to throw it out there again, except to say that Toadcurse is not really intended to be a instakill so much as instakill prep (it's gotten a number of buffs over the years, but that core has remained intact throughout). ---on 7/23 @ 00:29 writes: I would agree more with wobous assement that Toadcurse is basically the Wiccans prime instant kill and we should treat it as such. ---on 7/24 @ 01:10 writes: I don't think you are agreeing with his assessment at all. He is suggesting a rework of Wiccans (to lower mana drain to more comparable levels for guardians) in exchange for changing the design of the Toadcurse skill to make it an instakill. He is not saying to treat it as an insta-kill as-is, which it simply is not (and is not meant to be). ---on 7/26 @ 21:21 writes: I don't support this for the reasons stated above, but just wanted to note that there is still a definite downside to being toaded - i.e., you lose all of your defs. So even having multiple people attempt the kiss cure still imposes an appropriate risk for the opportunity. ---on 7/30 @ 08:39 writes: I agree with the common assessment that toad is fine as it is and problem is not in evidence.